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bldfw

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/22/2011 11:34 PM EST

Related Link:
My Texas Round House

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What's up with these guys?
Last week I posted an inquiry on the Demilec USA site stating I was looking for a closed cell contractor. I didn't hear back. So today I call them to followup stating again I was looking for a closed cell contractor. The sales person asked why I wanted closed cell. I advised I had done research (from this site too) and determined that closed cell was the better path to go, that it had better r-value and vapor barrier qualities over open cell.

Well, go figure. The sales person starts to sell me on open cell. I reminded her I had done my homework and wanted closed cell. Her response was to "just to let me know" that closed cell "increases noise transmission"......like WTF???

When they sell both products, why would they try to push me off on their open cell product when I already stated I wanted CLOSED CELL??

And then to heap on, they give me the name of a contractor in "my town" who turns out to be 2hrs away. And he wants to sell me on open cell in spite of having just told him I had done my homework and wanted CLOSED CELL.

Do they not believe in their own product or is the profit margin for open cell so great that they are dissuaded from selling their own closed cell product??

What gives??

foamdude

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/23/2011 9:42 AM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
increases noise transmission??
brilliant,,,send this bimbo back to school...or back to the warehouse,,,
now if she wanted to say open cell is more effective at sound reduction when compared to closed cell foam due to its reduction in vibrational transmission of sound when compared to cc foam,,she may have been on the right track,,,kinda,,,but then we have the whole wall system thingy dingy,,,you know,, all the wall systems components and their overall integration into the total sound reduction system...

hey,,,if they dont want to talk to you,,there are plenty of other suppliers with good applictors of cc foam who apply icc-es report holding foams,,,,many advertise right here on spf.com(your welcome doogles)

(idiots sidebar...many newbee spf applicators hate cc foam cause they aint learned/been properly trained how to spray it,,it is a biatch to trim and cut,,,sprays slower,,,more fickle to the newbee all the way around,,but they luv oc foam,,,fast app..easy to work with on the walls and studs,,easy to get off their oversprayed bodies lol,,,may be why you were being pushed to the oc camp,,,they aint got no cc dude worth a damn in your area...lol)

jimcoler  

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/23/2011 7:40 PM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
Well, were do I begin? I personally do recommend open cell over closed cell in a wood built structure and spray both products. There are a couple of reasons for this. The first one is wood is an open cell material and installing closed cell can drive the moisture to the wod causing it to expand and contract more drastically than using Open cell foam. pen cel foma acts as a moisture management system, not a moisture containment system. The second reason is the moisture containment system doesn't allow the moisture through the foam which can cause problems with the roof if your roof leaks. It can rot above the foam and yo won't know it until it's to late.

Thene there's the risk of putting it on too thick and causin a fire! If it's put on too thick in one pass, there is a risk of starting a fire. Then there's the total cost of the product which is typically about 30-40% more than open cell for the same R-value. The cost per R-value is actually less on open cell than the closed cell.

So, other than these, I would give you a price for both open and closed cell, try to educate you as much as possible and let you decide.
Jim

foamdude

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/23/2011 11:46 PM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
and,,
once again...bs,,,pure unadulterated hiberbable
i cant believe what i just read,,,
respectfully,,maybe,,
and what rectum did you pull that out of jim,,,
drives moisture into the wood,,,
brilliant,,,show me the study,,,
show me the modeling,,show me somethin,,substantiate your statement with something more than what you think you think,,,
now i can show you moisture drive into 15" of open cell foam,,,on an unconditioned lid,,as the sun comes up and drives it into the timbers and into the foam,,and i can show the curve of it drying back out to the outside,,as it should,,,
physics,,not bs,,,cripes,,,and subsequently i can show you moisture drive into lessor depths of open cell foam,,physics,,the way of the world,,,
fire risk is an application error,,pure and simpled,,stuck a probe in a 12" hogged bun of oc foam,,,well the temps are up there baby,,,
but yes indeed,,,open cell foam is less expensive when r value alone is considered,,,
plenty of posts on the merits of both formulations out here,,,
this otta be good,,,(donning flak jacket)

guiness

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/24/2011 1:02 PM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
Yup, this otta be good! Lazy boy reclined, Jiffy pop popped and ice cold beer cracked. Let er go boys! Hee Hee.

bldfw

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/24/2011 2:10 PM EST

Related Link:
My Texas Round House

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RE: What's up with these guys?
yeah, I gotta agree. I've done a fair amount of research over the last week churning through multiple different sites and have seen many a comment on either side of the fence but the fire comments seem like gratuitous fear mongering. From other postings I've seen, it's clear the guy is not a fan of closed cell foam. Maybe he got burned in one of those fires he's talking about (in which case, he needs to get out of the business).

Anyway, question for ya'll (assuming it's allowed and there's no rate police out there)......

I just got a verbal quote from a guy of $2.98-4.08 per board foot for a 2lb closed cell roof and wall installation (Dallas area). Is that the normal ballpark rate? It seems a bit high to me.

Thoughts?

Dixfoam  

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/24/2011 5:09 PM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
Did you mean square ft?

bldfw

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/24/2011 5:14 PM EST

Related Link:
My Texas Round House

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RE: What's up with these guys?
hmmmm....I pretty sure he said board foot. We talked about the size of my place which is roughly about 5700 board feet with 2" in the wall and 3" in the ceiling. I could have misconstrued what he was saying. I was thinking it would be lower based on things I had been reading in other blogs and sources. At his rate, it would be 15,000-20,000 for my little 1256sq ft house. I was thinking it should be down in the 5,000 range. No?

bldfw

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/24/2011 5:34 PM EST

Related Link:
My Texas Round House

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RE: What's up with these guys?
Phew!! Called the guy back. He was talking SqFt. That puts it back down in my expected range of cost. He's going to check my blog and then make a trip out here next week to look at the house personally.

airpro  

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/25/2011 12:54 PM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
The big “D” has always pushed open cell as being a better choice because they try to compete with the fiberglass guys. And there air higher profits for the contractor by spraying it to the marketing model that they give their contractors

When I met with one of their reps several years ago he was pushing the fact that they had an ICC ES report that approved the application of only 3.5 inches of open cell in the walls and 5.5 on the underside of the roof deck for up to zone 5 or 6 as “ADEQUATE”, I think this is why we are seeing open cell foam sprayed too thin to give customers the energy savings that they expect even though it may perform as well as the fiber glass that would normally be used.

Also the rep form “D” was the first person to tell me “that you don’t want to spray closed cell under a roof because you won’t be able to tell if the roof is leaking until it’s too late and the sheeting rots out and someone could fall through” what a load of @##@^$#@^ you could take all the sheeting off and walk across the 2# foam!!!!

Also bidfw,

I looked at your blog last week and found it very interesting and really enjoyed your take on home inspectors and I may post a link to it on another thread here.

But what I want to say is I personally spray both open and closed cell foam and I would recommend closed cell for you project as long as you could fit it into your budget, closed cell is the better product but you do get more R-value per dollar with open cell but you do have to have enough room to get enough of it in place to get the R-value that you need.

And don’t let anyone tell you that R-value doesn’t matter, it does along with air sealing and other concerns like thermo bridging that could be reduced by adding furring strip to separate the drywall from the framing.

Airpro

guiness

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/25/2011 2:46 PM EST

Reply

RE: What's up with these guys?
foamdude: 1

Cooler: 0

foamdude

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/25/2011 6:44 PM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
no stop that,,,,
you sound like sirrichardll....

airpro  

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/26/2011 12:01 AM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
haven't we been down this road before.

and Didn't Richard push Closed cell

Airpro

foamdude

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/26/2011 4:24 AM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
..indeed we have,,
but when they become current posts,,
its what the "info surfers" see who dont
spend the time to find the truth...
"...you want the truth,,,you can't handle the truth")...
so you it is in MY best intrest to ask questions right away,,,even if it aint nicey nice,,,
cause the person reading could be MY customer...
and if they read this TRIPE they could be mislead,,,much like the author,,,
oh yeah,, and did ya know that if its a bio foam the moisture in the wood will scream,,,nematoads,,neamatoads or sumpin like that,,and turn into to dennies waffles???
think about it,,,yeah,,thats the ticket,,, :)~

airpro  

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/26/2011 9:08 AM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
dude


It's always fun when you get involved.

Mulder "the truth is out there"

The bottom line is use the right foam in the right place, get the R-value needed to save money, and we recommend advanced framing to reduce thermal bridging but few builders will frame a house that way.

Airpro

guiness

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/26/2011 10:00 PM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
Jim must be busy blending up soybeans.

jimcoler  

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/29/2011 9:11 AM EST

Related Link:
www.coler.com

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RE: What's up with these guys?
OK Guys,
sprry about that. I've been busy for a change- unfortunately with maintenance activities! Yes, our products are soybean oil based and I stil promote open cell - regardless of what foamdude or airpro say!

Modeling is only that -a theory of how the moisture will migrate and be handlesd in the substrates. It's only as good as the information put into it and there are a lot of assumptions (ASS-U-ME)that are incorrect. So, I agree wit your comment about back to basics and back to physics and that's what I'm basing in on. I'm sprayed 6" in ceilings with no problems with moisture migration and even with over 85% RH in the attic.

I was in a house just a couple of weeks ago that the customer called and said they noticed moisture in the attic. I showed up and found the 6" of open cell doing its job, protecting the attic from over heating, providing an air barrier and moisture protection. This is the attic that was 85F and over 85% RH. An there was no moisture drive into the foam itself. There was no water build up within the foam or through the foam. So, where was the moisture coming from??? I went into the basement - which we also did the crawlspaces, and noticed three racks of clothes drying in the basement with wet clothes on them. The I mentioned to the customer and she said they had the basement flood in the last two weeks until they got the drain line snaked out! So, that's where the moisture was coming from! It's not always the foam as the root cause of the problem but we are easy to get blamed! This is a real lief case study where the roof should have been saturated with moisture from the inside due to the basement flooding and the drying clothes. Not, just a theory based model that someone predicts how it will act!

So, foamdude and Airpro, you can drink your CC coolade, but the truth is no vapor drive into the open cell at over 6" thick.

And Guiness, put down your beer, get out of your lazyboy chair and get back in the ring. You're just having too much fun watching us banter back and forth!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

brightalt

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/29/2011 11:32 AM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
Where's the independent evidence for cc rotting the roof?

I like em both don't get me wrong, and I think the profit is easier with oc but I personally prefer CC
Oc adds no structural benefit for eg.

I also think the promoted downsides of cc outside of price are the result of scumbag sales tactics from people like icynene who do not have both products to sell....
imho

airpro  

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/29/2011 1:52 PM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
I spray alot of open cell foam but I just don't think that only 6inches is enough insulation for the underside of the roof. And like 8-10 inches here in Indiana.

I do think closed cell is a better product but you do get more R-value per dollar with open cell so both have a place in this business.

I also believe in giving the customer the options and let them make the choice, it's their money.

Airpro

guiness

Q&A Forums Registered User
Posted: 6/29/2011 2:20 PM EST

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RE: What's up with these guys?
Yes, I do enjoy the banter.

Not quite sure how to score this one?

As I've said in the past, All foams have their place. Get the SF of the building, give the customer info, Give them options. Guide them in the right direction of course.

But whatever you do, don't give them fiberjunk or old newspaper! LOL

P.S. We to have sprayed 6 inches of OC, unvented, with great success. I have a long term project that I have been watching. No problems so far for 4 years. Not picking sides, I'm just sayin.

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